erence for this method of construction. In residential districts, heavy oil, properly and thinly applied, outside of its greater life has an added advantage. It happens at times that shortly after oiling, a heavy shower, will fall. In properly shaped roadways this means that most of the water will find its way to the gutter, if there be one, or at least to the edges of the roadway. The lighter the oil, the more oil will the water carry off to the side and the more pronounced will be the resulting oil stain on the grass or on the granitoid gutter when the water has found its way to the drain.

The oiling of road surfaces, to get the best results, requires not only a knowledge of the oil, but necessitates an equipment to properly handle the same. I should say that the "pitting" of the road surface referred to may have been due to several causes, to wit: Dust on the road metal; lack of uniformity in the application, and the low temperature, of the oil; excessive amount of oil per square yard and the failure to properly cover the same with sharp sand or stone chips.

We use annually from 300,000 to 400,000 gallons of heavy residuum oil on all classes or roads and pavements without receiving a protest from the householder or auto!mobilist. Without proper facilities for the heating and spraying of the heavy oil, I recommend, as Mr. Owen does, the use of a lighter oil. However, several treatments per season with this grade of oil bring about the same result as may be accomplished with a heavy oil; that is to say, the lighter product volatilizes somewhat, leaving a residuum which, in time, gives a surface equal to that obtained by the use of a heavier oil.

The road problem has assumed such importance that the question of first cost should, to a large degree, be eliminated. The question should be not how cheap but how well the road or pavement may be built to meet the traffic requirements. With this determined, and after the completion of the work, the inauguration of a system of patrolmen constantly on the lookout for water holes and depressions, and equipped to make repairs promptly, is necessary. With such an organization and the annual application to the road surface of a light treatment of oil and sharp sand, the cost of maintenance will be reduced to a minimum. This cost should not exceed from one to three

cents per square yard per annum. Under these conditions the maintenance problem will not assume the usual large proportions.

MR. ROSS: I believe these papers are the most valuable papers I have heard, and I believe it is a subject in which we are all deeply interested. To properly discuss this subThere are people here who

ject would take half a day. have come a long distance to ascertain what to do in these cases, and I move that we adjourn now, take a recess, and take up the subject after dinner at two o'clock.

CHAIRMAN OWEN: We will now adjourn until two

o'clock.

NINTH SESSION

Friday Afternoon, November 17

CHAIRMAN OWEN: Now, gentlemen, I think we had better open this meeting, and I do not know but what we had better call it an "experience meeting." I think the first suggestion I would make to the gathering is that those who desire information kindly ask questions on the different propositions in this road maintenance question. I do not suppose that because you get up and ask questions, you will be considered ignorant, as I think all of us are ignorant on certain phases of our work, and I think every man should ask questions of those who have read papers, or of others. So, we will open the meeting by the question box.

MR. BLAIR: I suppose that means to ask questions or discuss the papers, or say anything in relation to the subject, since it is now open to discussion?

CHAIRMAN OWEN: Surely.

MR. BLAIR: I very much regret that Mr. Travilla is not here, as I want to make some strong objection to some things contained in his paper. It was read just before recess was taken for lunch.

It is more to attack the inference or inferences to be drawn from what he did say, than with an idea of disputing anything that was directly stated that I will speak. I was in St. Louis and went over the streets there with Mr. Travilla on last Saturday morning. I have been acquainted with the conditions in St. Louis for the last thirty-five years, and intimately acquainted with them longer, perhaps, than has Mr. Travilla himself. There are brick streets there, or

at least portions of brick streets, that instead of lasting ten or fifteen years, have not had a single item of repair upon them for twenty years.

I agree with Mr. Travilla that St. Louis has the heaviest traffic of any city in the world. That is, the loads are among the largest. But take the downtown portions of Fifteenth street, Sixteenth street, Seventeenth or Eighteenth street which have been subjected to that heavy wear, and it will be found that they have not had a penny of repair placed upon them. That there are some brick streets that needed repairs in the time mentioned by Mr. Travilla is true, but it was because of the manner and method of construction.

Now, I saw this kind of construction going on in the streets there last Saturday: A concrete foundation was being placed, which contained stone that would not pass through a six-inch screen, and some even coarser than that. Of all the foundations I saw in St. Louis, there was not a single one being placed for brick, of which it was possible to make a smooth foundation for a brick street. And if we expect to have any kind of a street at its best, there must be skill in its construction.

Mr. Travilla said he would recommend, if he had his way, and he probably will have in St. Louis, that the cement filler be made, I think he said in his paper, one to three. That is what he told me himself. The trouble with the brick streets Mr. Travilla is putting in now and with the cement filler he is using is not that they are of too good a quality, but rather that they are of too poor quality. After being shown some of the streets that Mr. Travilla was satisfied with, I said to him: "You have not shown me a brick street that you should be proud of, but rather that you should be ashamed of." There were places in the streets, perhaps a square yard or two square yards in area, or even larger, where the cement bond was shattered or broken. Now, if you undertake to put any kind of cement work in a street, you must have the proportions, whatever they are, uniform throughout the entire street You must not have one to five in one place and one to twelve in another. That is the case in the cement streets of St. Louis. They are all checked and broken up. If you put a cement filler in place, in proportion of one to one, it would have a uniform compression, and would not have

those breaks. But you could look down the street for onehalf or three-quarters of a mile, and not be able to detect a single shatter in the brick pavement.

There is another question that is raised at this time, and that is, the proper supervision to see that the thing is done right, and if that comes from the city engineer, he must have power enough to enforce his knowledge. In St. Louis, I saw you could not get a good job. As I passed along the streets, someone haled the commissioner, and he went over. What did he find? He found there was a grocery wagon standing in front of a store at the intersection of a street, and the grocer would not take the wagon out of the way. In fact, he had three wagons, and he would not budge them. One wagon was right where the contractor should have had space to deposit his broken stone. If I had been an engineer of the city I would have jerked those wagons out of there in a hurry and told the contractor to occupy the position he was entitled to.

On the other side of the street there was a fellow interfering and kicking about the smoke, and the contractor could not place his engine where it should be placed to permit him to build the street economically. A little further along there was a kicker against other things necessary for the contractor to have in order to build the street economically.

Now, no contractor or engineer can build a street that is controlled by a mob of property owners fighting for the destruction of the very thing which they will complain of afterward if it is not right.

There was another thing that developed there that was remarkable, to my mind, and that was that the stone that was taken up and used for the concrete was pounded by hand. It was coarse, as I have stated, and I said, "Why isn't this stone shot through a mill and reduced to the proper size for this concrete?" The reply was, "The people will not stand for it, and the price will be too high if it is hauled to a crusher and broken as it should be." So, in the city of St. Louis there are thousands of dollars being sacrificed to the whims of people who know nothing about street building.

I think the influence of this association should go out in that direction, and see if it cannot bring about conditions such that streets can be built as they should be built.

I criticise the conditions under which these streets were built; I criticise them as they were built; and I absolutely dispute the fairness of the statement that these streets wear out so early, when they are built properly. (Applause.)

CHAIRMAN OWEN: Gentlemen, while we are on this question of brick-and Mr. Blair is a prophet on it, I would like to ask him one or two questions.

The first question I am going to ask him is this: What space does Mr. Blair in practice consider to be the most desirable for his brick to be laid? We all understand that we are advocating cement grouting for the covering of brick, and I have been troubled about the space between the bricks necessary to get a good clinch. You know in our wooden houses if the laths are too close together you cannot get a good clinch, and if they are too far apart you do not get a good joint, and it is the same with cement grouting for brick.

The other question is how to preserve the grouting on the surface of either brick or stone. In one case we grouted the street, shut off the travel, and the funniest thing I know of happened. The children broke it all up, and we had to cover the grouting all up again with a coating of sand to keep the surface uniform.

MR. BLAIR: First, about the clinch. As to that, there are splendid brick streets in this country where there is no lug or anything on the bricks to separate them. They were simply wire cut. We find that sand and cement can be applied in a thin layer. We agree that that is possible and streets have been so laid that are twenty years old, and you cannot tell anything about their age.

I refer in answer to that question to one single street. Professor Baker in his work "Roads and Pavements," which he prepared nine years ago, mentioned a street in which he said that the wear on the brick was from one thirty-second of an inch to one sixty-fourth of an inch. That street was a wire cut brick street. It was then in its eleventh year, and that was ten years ago. Last year, when nine more years had elapsed, Professor Baker went to that street with a number of prominent engineers, and this question was put to him: "Professor Baker, what is the difference between that street now and the street you wrote about in your book nine years ago, when you said the wear